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Previous by Date: Subject: Re: FW: Ear Bud Radio Use in labs Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 14:00:09 EDT Author: Alvaldenio**At_Symbol_Here**AOL.COM

Next by Date: Subject: Chemical Safety headlines from Google Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 07:23:21 -0400 Author: Ralph Stuart

All,
 
This happened frequently when I was still affiliated with the Rocky Mountai n Poison and Drug Center in Denver.  Various times each year; some time as often as once a month.  We do have a national database on to xic exposures reported to Poison Centers which, if I remember correctly , does have some data on this.  I could ask about finding and post ing it if there is interest.  However, I really don't see how this would help unless we are planning a public information or a firefighter/HA ZMAT Team education campaign from D-CHAS, but I'm open to suggestions as a "newbie" EC member.
 
What often, tragically, happens is that a person mixes ammonia-based (N H3) and bleach-based (hypochlorite) or other types of drain cleaners in a small bathroom (think confined space, because many of them are and a bathroom fan isn't exactly an exhaust cabinet/hood), and they generate chloramine vapors (there are even cases in which generation of hydrogen sul fide (H2S) has occurred -- depending on what's where).  Chloramine i s a quite potent respiratory tract irritant.  Each year, we would have some deaths from this, from either acute upper airway irritation wit h glottic edema and occlusion (vocal cords swell shut so no air can be inhaled/exhaled), or a slightly delayed occurrence of non-cardiogenic pulmonary edema (the lungs leak the fluid part of blood plasma into the alv eoli -- air sacs where O2/CO2 exchange occurs in the lungs) a nd also results in a severe respiratory compromise and even death (t his isn't an easy condition to treat medically). 
 
Other drain cleaners may contrain relatively significant amounts of& nbsp;bases (various products may have up to 20% NaOH), and others conta in various acids.  You can go to Texas and buy muriati c acid in gallon jugs as a swimming pool chemical in supermarkets (I have d one so to do live chemical decontamination demonstrations).  I don't need to tell chemists what will happen when you mix an acid and a base pro duct, but if you do the old high school chemistry lab one with baking sod a and vinegar, your get a bunch of bubbling and a visible whitish cloud - - basically harmless, but for the media, at least a simple way t o demonstrate that mixing incompatible chemicals results in reactions.  ; Maybe that's what the Chief was trying to get at?
 
For anyone who's interested, we do teach a lot of this in t he Advanced HAZMAT Life Support Course which is administered out of the&nbs p;Emergency Medicine Research Center at the University of Arizona in Tucs on:  www.alhs.org.
 
The issue of "poisonous" vs "toxic is just semantics.  It's pretty h ard for a substance to be toxic and not also be poisonous.  But we h ave the ongoing issue of a "toxin" (a protein or peptide-based  ;poisonous substance elaborated by a living organism [toxin; re:   rattlesnake venom, black widow spider venom, etc.] versus a&nb sp;"toxicant" [any substance that can be harmful to humans or the environ ment].  Nonsense in the end, because we all know what we me an.  Whoever briefed the Chief just didn't think this out.&nb sp; Give the poor guy a break.  He's probably not a chemist or a t oxicologist or a HAZMAT team member.  They seem to have done what was right, and that's all that counts in the end.  This seems like an attempt to educate the public to give up on drain cleaners (in a l ong life as "Harry Homeowner" I've never had one work yet to clean the drai n -- but they make a heck of a chemical neutralization demonstration) and c all a plumber and get the drain cleaned that way or go get a "snake" and do it yourself.  Tom Paine wasn't wrong:  there's a place for " Common Sense."  Just because it's shown on TV, made the subject of an internet site, or printed out on an HP color printer doesn't make it TRUE.
 
Alan H. Hall, M.D.
Medical Toxicologist
Verified Advanced HAZMAT Life Support Provider and Instructor
Former Volunteer Firefighter
TCMTS, Inc.
Laramie, WY
Colorado School of Public Health
Denver, CO
 

From: "Samuella B. Sigmann" <sigmannsb**At_Symbol_Here**appstate.edu>

Date: June 7, 2010 9:12:24 AM EDT